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Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2015.07.24 07:38:14 -
[1] - Quote
Like really there kinda invulnerable to all EW, cap warfare etc due to them shooting even after being Jammed / sensor disrupted and aggressive drones automatically firing and being able to assign your drones to someone else, the only way to deal with them is the dumb way of destroying the ships. Now you can obviously still turn off the micro's / AB's and other modules with cap warfare and scrams but eh.
Like seriously within the past 2 days there has been 2 times were if something hadn't have been a drone boat I could have killed them all 1 where we had a Falcon, Rapier, Arazu and 2 damage ships against 6 drone boats with Sentries and we just couldn't engage because range control ships and ECM would have done us no good, and it was early in the morning so we couldn't call anyone else out
Then there was another one where there was a Gila running sites in a WH and we only had 2 pilots on-line because it was really late and again if it was a turret/missle ship we could have easily taken it out with a Arazu and a heavy DPS ship with a light tank. But no the only way of fighting them would have been to bring more tanky and higher DPS ships.
Now all the other weapon systems have there up's and downs Lasers don't require you to fill up your cargo hold with Ammo but require a fair bit of cap to shoot, Autocannon don't require cap but the Ammo is quite large, Hybrids require less cap than lasers but the ammo is of a reasonable size, missiles don't require cap and are not effected by tracking disruption but have flight times and can be counters by firewalls and are quite large usually.
Meanwhile drones are not effected by Cap warfare and are effectively invulrable to EW, tracking disruptors, ECM and webs because if you have enough ships to apply there effects to all there drones you might as well have just brought DPS ships and shot them to high hell. I know you have the risk of someone shooting your drones but a lot of these drone boats have increases the amount of HP on drones to the point to where it is much more effective to just shoot the ship.
Now I'm not saying they should be vulnerable to webs / tracking disruption, but at the very least think your drone control range should be effected by damps, and also really I think drones should not be able to auto engage capsuleers because if a falcon for example gets auto engaged by the drones its bye bye Falcon, bye bye and if its a few sets of sentries you can basically kiss any recon goodbye. And also I would like to completely remove assisting drones tbh but the last one would get people really mad. |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2015.07.24 08:04:54 -
[2] - Quote
Azda Ja wrote:Have you tried shooting the drones?
Already tackled that as on most these drone boats there is a bonus to drone hitpoints which makes it more efficient to just destroy the ship and some will be able to hold more drones than they can deploy. Especially when it comes to sentries which have quite a bit of hit-points. |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2015.07.24 08:11:23 -
[3] - Quote
Adrian Maifeld wrote:As you already pointed out, the major drawback of drones is that you can kill them. And you should! If you focus on the boat, the pilot has more chances to kill you/escape/do something else.
But if you have killed all his drones, he's standing there naked just with his d1ke in his hand.
So good tracking has higher priority than dps, I think.
To be honest you could just apply what I said to sentries, I don't think you understand how much EHP a sentries drone has after skills / hull bonuses. |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2015.07.24 09:05:47 -
[4] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Roxanne Dallas wrote:we had a Falcon, Rapier, Arazu from this post my only recommendation is to buff drone boats
And 2 damage ships I can't remember which once but they would have put out about 700 dps each, anyway I have no idea what you mean except that maybe you don't like EW, then I take from that that you like blob warfare where you overpower any kind of tactics with raw power... And as I said any turret/missle based ships would have lost badly as the Falcon could have almost perma jammed 3 of them the Arazu could have damped 3 of them down to 50km~ lock range and we stay outside 50k while the Arazu point 2 of them and maybe the other 4 warp away but we would have won. |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 09:07:52 -
[5] - Quote
Brutus Utama wrote:You Can ECM the drones.... or destroy them drone boats without drones are pretty useless.. Yes you can ECM drones but you would have to spread your ECM out over 5 drones per person which makes it not worth doing and again a Gila has a 500% bonus to drone hitpoint you are talking about taking out 4 mid tanked cruisers rather than 1 heavily tanked cruiser... That is what I would call stupidity.
and all the other decent drone boats have a 20% bonus to drone hitpoints per level and multiple flights of drones so that also makes it stupid to attack the drones, basically the only time it makes sense is when your in a frigate/destroyer and a battleship is sending out light drones. |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2015.07.24 09:16:24 -
[6] - Quote
Niriel Greez wrote:Roxanne Dallas wrote: Then there was another one where there was a Gila running sites in a WH and we only had 2 pilots on-line because it was really late and again if it was a turret/missle ship we could have easily taken it out with a Arazu and a heavy DPS ship with a light tank. But no the only way of fighting them would have been to bring more tanky and higher DPS ships.
You are what is wrong with this game. Unwilling to engage a target that isn't neuted, jammed and scrammed and some logi just in case while also outnumbering the target. Oh and for what it's worth, recons are significantly more 'OP' than drones.
Lulz as I said we could have just brought heavy DPS ships, and I was only going to use Damps and long range warp disruption, I don't know where you get the idea that they were goiung to be Jammed nueted scramed and have logi.
If we had more poeple I would have just went in with light and fast stuff and popped him them ran away no need for logi or nuets or anything else. EW is just a force multiplier we could have won just by brining 2 Gila's or 2 basically anything with a decent tank and high DPS but we were in a WH so limited ship choice. |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2015.07.24 09:25:23 -
[7] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:A Gila outnumbered you? Sooo confused.
Sorry I thought you were talking about my frist example but I don't know where you get off saying I had to have them scramed neuted jammed with logi when I said we only had 2 pilots on and if we had even 3+ pilots I would have just went in with vaga's so your just wrong and if you outnumber someone so badly that you can scram nuet etc everything on the field you could just more easily take them out with raw damage so no EW is not OP. |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 09:34:18 -
[8] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:yes kill the drones unless you fighting a rattlesnake....
Or Gila or a Pilgim or Curse or Ishkur etc |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2015.07.24 09:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:think there should be an ewar module for drones, not just ecming each drone but a module which targets the ship to affect the drones
Then why not just roll that into existing modules... |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2015.07.24 09:40:53 -
[10] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:Roxanne Dallas wrote:Omar Alharazaad wrote:A Gila outnumbered you? Sooo confused. Sorry I thought you were talking about my frist example but I don't know where you get off saying I had to have them scramed neuted jammed with logi when I said we only had 2 pilots on and if we had even 3+ pilots I would have just went in with vaga's so your just wrong and if you outnumber someone so badly that you can scram nuet etc everything on the field you could just more easily take them out with raw damage so no EW is not OP its just that when your outnumbered it is a force multiplier. When a fleet Wambljam's something with logi as backup its just because thats the fleet they had and was meant to be for taking out a larger fleet than them, but they had the opportunity to take out something else... Are you asking fleets who run across a single pilots/ smaller gang not to gank them? I said no such thing. Thinking there's some conversational crossover going on here. Different drone boats pose different problems for dealing with. Sentry Ishtars scare me more than Gilas do to be honest. On a fleet level the drone swarm is a daunting thing, no doubt. On a smaller scale they're still challenging, but not unbeatable.
I wasn't saying there unbeatable with even 1 person but to take on a passively tanked Gila you would need to up ship it significantly in a turret based ship. |
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Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 09:51:46 -
[11] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:to be fair i lost my gila in a thunderdome match against a phantasm, it seemed like such an easy kill for him
Sorry when I say passively tanked I mean passive recharge, not buffer or booster fit because all you need to take down a booster fit is a little neuting power or if its buffer you can just dps it in a roughly equal ship. |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 09:57:19 -
[12] - Quote
Yossarian Toralen wrote:I couldn't kill a drone boat because I didn't bring the right tools for the job and I couldn't come up with any tactics to beat it.
CCP should change it so I can turn up with my friends and kill every ship in the game, even if I picked the wrong ship/ship fit. But they have to make me the only one that can do it because everyone will be doing it, and then I would have to come to the forum and complain that there was someone I couldn't beat.
No I'm saying that drone boats being resistant to all E-WAR is ridiculous because unlike every other type of ship "excluding capitals" there is no effective E-war / non shooting counter, which is silly.
f*** it if they made a specialized ship for it I would have added it at the beginning. |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 10:05:42 -
[13] - Quote
Boudacca Sangrere wrote:I think the MAIN problem of the OP is the cardinal sin of EvE - Failure to Adapt. Your Arazu, etc. work great against turreted or missile ship, but not so much against a drone boat (and I think poor tactics may be to blame here too), well ADAPT!!! Fly more heavy dps, rather than a falcon... Gilas melt just like other ships. Fly (gasp) a drone boat yourself. Don't be frigging lazy and complain that the round hole is overpowered if you are trying to fit a square peg into it. But yes, it is sooo much easier to whine than to figure out how to deal with it.
B.
You know drones originally never designed to be a main weapon system, and this is one of the results of that thats basically why there are no non pew pew counters etc. So yeah they need to change the system to reflect that yes drones are now a main weapon system which needs a counter. |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 11:17:47 -
[14] - Quote
Switch Savage wrote:Even 500% bonused mediums die very quickly under well applied dps. If you did not have the correct ship to take out a drone boat in an area of space that commonly has ratting drone boats. Perhaps you should invest/roam in a broader range of vessels more suited to your target area. A hammerhead II has 480H 216A 120S and thats 816 without resists lets say 1200~ with resists with the 25% bonus from drone durability 5 thats 1350 x 5 = 6775 EHP per drone with something thats got a sig of 50m when its orbiting you at around 650~ m/s at 2km that ain't going down fast vs a Passive Recharge Gila at 36k~ EHP with a peek recharge of 380~ with a sig of 220m...
The sig is literately over 4x as big and vs all the drones with an EHP of 27100 combined EHP... yeah your better off taking down the Gila as the drones are faster and much smaller.
If you don't know what a small sig does for applied damage have you ever flown a guardian which has a much smaller amount of EHP than a say a T3 but a T2 fitted t3 isn't much more serviceable because its sig is much bigger than that of a Guardian and that isn't even a different of double. And I'm talking if your in the same range as a T3 and a T3 is generally faster and more maneuverable than a Guard so actual survivable and its ability to orbit 1 spot and soak up damage is a lot different. |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 11:19:38 -
[15] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Aplysia Vejun wrote:Moac Tor wrote:I'll give you a straight answer; yes drones are dominant in the current meta and anyone with actual experience in pvp knows this. The best counter to drone ships is simply to bring more dps. Drones have to be individually targeted with ewar meaning that when dealing with 5 drones this is unviable in an evenly matched encounter, and shooting at the drones in most cases will be ome little more than an annoyance for any skilled drone boat user. This is why CCP are scrabbling around trying to find the magic bullet which will rebalance drones, they have the statistics and can see the prevelance of drone ships in the current meta. This has been the case ever since the DDA was released. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=431058 I'd suggest looking at this thread. The only problem are -or better were- sentries with ishtars. With some exception of the ishtar shooting the drones is a very good option in smaller scale pvp. And in big battles... smartbombs anyone? CCP has given us the statistics which show the dominance of drones across every ships class so your words are just that, anyone who keeps up with pvp ship balance knows the reality. Not that I like to pick on killboards due to alts and the fact that they can be manipulated, but it is hard to ignore that you have a lot of Ishtar losses and very few drone ship kills on there. Lets take the example of a solo fight against an Ishtar using ogres, even applying maximum DPS on the ogres with a similarly matched ship (bear in mind that applying your maximum dps is very unlikely) your looking at around 10 seconds to kill each Ogre. The Ishtar can field 15 Ogres and you'd need to kill 11 of them before you start having an impact on its actual dps (this is not including the fact that a skilled drone user isnt going to make it easy for you to kill his drones and will recall damaged ones and let them recharge the shield and have to target a new one). So in best case scenario your looking at just under 2 minutes before you start having tangible effect on the Ishtars DPS by shooting at its drones, given how much damage a flight of 5 ogres will do to you its unlikely you'll last two minutes (and we didn't even mention the fact that the ishtar has a full rack of free high slots for extra blaster DPS or neuts)
deploy sentries at 70km a lulz away. |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 11:37:23 -
[16] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote: Here is the actual results of the maths (I have it worked out including resists); a ship doing 500dps (fully applied against an Ogre II fielded by an Ishtar against the Ogre's weakest resist which are explosive or thermal) will take 7.2 seconds to kill. Multiply that by 11 drones and you get 79.2 seconds, or 1 minute 19.2 seconds before you start to hurt the Ishtars DPS.
Bear in mind that it is highly unlikely you will be applying your maximum dps as the drone user will be managing his drones and your guns or missiles will have a hard time applying their full dps to a small target.
Against sentries your looking at 15.4 seconds in the same scenario, and so 169.4 seconds in total before hurting its dps (although it is much easier to apply your damage against sentries)
And if you were to apply damage to an armor Ishtar it would take you 95 seconds... much shorter for a Shield one for obvious reasons, damn them taking away that mid slot. Maybe you should have done the same calculation for the actual boat your aruging I shouldn't destroy first... |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 11:38:34 -
[17] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Roxanne Dallas wrote:Lan Wang wrote:to be fair i lost my gila in a thunderdome match against a phantasm, it seemed like such an easy kill for him Sorry when I say passively tanked I mean passive recharge, not buffer or booster fit because all you need to take down a booster fit is a little neuting power or if its buffer you can just dps it in a roughly equal ship. no, all you need to do is kite it and kill the drones then kite it and kill the gila there is a video of the fight i had in the thunderdome thread and you can see how useless the gila was against the phantasm
Well the other problem was there were sleepers on field as well so I couldn't just bring something that would fold on field to quickly. |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 11:52:12 -
[18] - Quote
Aplysia Vejun wrote:No need to be so stupid. IF the ishtar-user has only ogres in bay.... too bad for him. Just kite him at 20km with nearly any cruiser. The ogres wont hit anything without scram and web. You have all the time you need to kill him. Or use a bc. Some can tank this damage with ease. Or fit 2 thermic hardeners when you know what the other is using. Or use an ewar ship on the ishtar, kill his drones. You now have all the time you need as new drones will not attack you. Etcetc. I know its hard but at least try to use tactics. Just sitting at 0 without moving WILL get you killed.
Why would you use Ogre's? yeah they move... but barely and also the damage isn't significantly better so you would use sentries and spread them a little and anything trying to get under the sentries guns will get blapped. |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 12:08:23 -
[19] - Quote
Aplysia Vejun wrote:You mean one or two possible cases where it could be bad?( ishtar and stratios) and even only if the bay is filled with large drones. You perhaps have pvp experience in big battles. But not in very small ones I'm a Wormholer... Yeah I have lots of experience is small battles, and a very positive killboard, also I make my money on the markets so I'm not there for the ISK in wormhole space. Got into 0.0 for a bit but the blobiness of it all annoyed me. |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 12:22:01 -
[20] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Aplysia Vejun wrote:... The only problem are -or better were- sentries with ishtars. With some exception of the ishtar shooting the drones is a very good option in smaller scale pvp. And in big battles... smartbombs anyone?.. Even in small gangs a good smart bombing ship will fly out and intercept drones at they approach your gang.
I'm sorry but if your trying to do that with sentries or heavy's with a 50% bonus to hitpoints in a small gang your bad. |
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Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2015.07.24 12:34:02 -
[21] - Quote
Aplysia Vejun wrote:To cool down a bit: you were shown several possibilities to use ewar against drone ships. It's not a i-win button like against other ships, but still a viable option to use.
Its not an I-win button against any ship of a similar class, and if you think it is, again your bad its a force multiplier not a force onto its self. |
Roxanne Dallas
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2015.07.24 12:48:17 -
[22] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Roxanne Dallas wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Aplysia Vejun wrote:... The only problem are -or better were- sentries with ishtars. With some exception of the ishtar shooting the drones is a very good option in smaller scale pvp. And in big battles... smartbombs anyone?.. Even in small gangs a good smart bombing ship will fly out and intercept drones at they approach your gang. I'm sorry but if your trying to do that with sentries or heavy's with a 50% bonus to hitpoints in a small gang your bad, and I call small gange 3 to 10 people btw 11 to 50 is mid sized gange and 51 + is large multiple fleets is massive. You know transversal is very effective against sentries (orbit the drones instead of the ships launching them) and that heavies are slow and very vulnerable to webs and being shot?
Again as I said spread them out 5 - 10 km apart.... then transversal becomes manageable for most of the sentries. |
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